Banking Blackjack against the house
Occasionally I've done this one on one with friends or acquaintances, and it is more about not dealing too far into the deck if you're playing against a skilled player who is tracking cards than anything else.
I'm assuming fixed hit/stand rules for the dealer.
In your case - That 5% commission is definitely going to eat up any possible advantage though, even with only a 6:5 payout, if you're playing against players who know what they are doing.
The only way I may see the count mattering is if you just got up and left when the count was very bad, since you have no control over the bet amount.
You tell the corporation how much you want them to play and how many hands you would like them to play.
You're going to need to rethink this one some more. Maybe someone else will come in and waste his time responding, because the game you describe sounds like a waste of time.
I've heard this story before.Quote: MDawgWhen I was a kid (funny, too, in that this is your Username), I'd run a little casino in my bedroom with a miniature roulette wheel, a Keno station, also BJ where I was the house and dealer. I'd always beat all the kids for all their money, but it was more about that they didn't know what they were doing than the house advantage.
But what's unique about your story. "but it was more about that they didn't know what they were doing than the house advantage."
"roulette wheel, a Keno station"
Assuming you were running a normal fair game with evenly distributed odds, I would love for you to explain how one can know what they are doing while playing those two games?
Quote: MDawgI don't think the Kid knows what he is talking about. On each hand you are able to force the players to bet whatever you want, with no player discretion? As the Germans might say, Ich bezweifle das.
Lol I definitely know what I am talking about. I have done it plenty of times. Only requirement is you must have 3x the amount that you require them to wager.
Largest bet I have made them make was $400. I saw a guy lose over 30k playing against the house and then I told him that he had the option to take their action and he made them start playing 3 hands of $1000 each.
https://wizardofvegas.com/forum/gambling/blackjack/11963-california-blackjack-player-banking-how-does-it-work/
also here
https://www.bestonlinecasinos.com/blackjack/variations/california-blackjack/
The Kid already left out details of how there is sometimes a 53 card deck with jokers. Also apparently there is a two hand in a row limit to playing the "Corporation" at Hollywood Park, for example. Other details he left out are described in some of the posts above, and below
https://oag.ca.gov/gambling/cardroomlist
Good luck, Kid.
Quote: MDawgThere is some talk about it already here
/forum/gambling/blackjack/11963-california-blackjack-player-banking-how-does-it-work/
also here
/blackjack/variations/california-blackjack/
The Kid already left out details of how there is a 53 card deck with jokers. Also apparently there is a two hand in a row limit to playing the "Corporation" at Hollywood Park, for example. Other details he left out are described in some of the posts above, and below
/gambling/cardroomlist
Good luck, Kid.
There is not a 53 card deck, not sure where they do that. There is a two hand limit when banking against other players correct. You switch between the corporation and yourself. I am not a big fan of doing this because you have no control who is playing or how much they bet. There are 5 cardrooms around where I live and only one of them allows you to make the corporation play if you want to. This is what I am asking about. Like I said before when you do this you pay them $5 for every $100 bet and you can tell them you want then to open up as many hands as you want You can also stop at anytime or change the bet amount or the number of hands dealt.
Quote: MDawgHmm, well if you may play the "bank" (dealer, corporation, whatever) only two hands in a row, gets back to how there's not enough of a chance to play long enough to benefit from any count. Also, it's not clear from the rules I read that the dealer is able to force the players to bet a certain amount, rather that the dealer puts up a certain amount and then the players may play up to that amount, or less than that amount if they choose.
So the only two hands in a row rule at this casino only applies if you are banking other players action and not the third party (corporation) As long as you are buying action from the cooperation you can continue to bank. I have banked entire shoes before against the corporation, never really having a strategy. The rules are pretty simple. You walk up to the table and tell the dealer and corporation that you want to buy action. They ask how much and how many hands you want to play. The minimum they will play is $20 I am not sure what the max is but like I said previously I have seen them play 3 hands of $1000 each. As long as you have 3x the amount bet on the table they will deal. If the corporation wins the hand the dealer takes money from your stack and give it to them. If they lose the dealer takes money from the corporation and pays you. After the hand is over you can keep leave you can change the amount bet or change the amount of hands you want them to open up. Along with paying the corporation to play you have to pay the house (the dealer) for the total amount wagered. I believe if it is under $100 its .50 and if its over $100 its $1 and anything over $500 is like $3 or something.
Also this 3X bankroll the dealer must have on hand is perhaps, at least at Hollywood Park, because of the layout I noticed on some of the pictures, where there are three bets one for each card that drops?
I don't pretend to understand the game but it seems like you don't completely either.
In any case, I put up say $300. does that mean the combined players may take part or all of that action up to a max of $300. max payout? Does it mean I need to have 300 x 3 on hand to handle up to three players? Or is it 300 x 3 to handle the one player betting up to all three of the circles?
Which casino exactly are you playing at?
https://oag.ca.gov/gambling/cardroomlist
What are the exact rules?
Quote: MDawgStill, what's critical to this analysis is whether the amount the dealer/banker/corp puts up is what the players must bet, or the max to which they may bet.
Also this 3X bankroll the dealer must have on hand is perhaps, at least at Hollywood Park, because of the layout I noticed on some of the pictures, where there are three bets one for each card that drops?
g]
I don't pretend to understand the game but it seems like you don't completely either.
In any case, I put up say $300. does that mean the combined players may take part or all of that action up to a max of $300. max payout? Does it mean I need to have 300 x 3 on hand to handle up to three players? Or is it 300 x 3 to handle the one player betting up to all three of the circles?
Which casino exactly are you playing at?
/gambling/cardroomlist
What are the exact rules?
I do understand the exact rules but I am probably not explaining them very well. You have to have 3x the money bet on the table. The extra betting spots for the carDs rarely get played. Sometimes if a player is hit someone will bet on their hand with them but that rarely happens. So say that there is $50 bet on the first spot and $100 on the second spot, you must have $450 in front of you to pay out. As long as you don’t have any other players playing at the table you have full control of what is bet. When I sit down to do it I often raise the table limit to $100 to prevent any other players coming to the table. This way it is just me, the corporation and the dealer. If you have $1000 in front of you you can have the corporation bet anywhere from $20 to $360. If you win you can have them bet a larger amount.
Anyway, for further comment I'd suggest giving us the URL to the exact casino rules. Thanks!
Heres the casino I go to. There are plenty of other ones in the area but they don't allow you to make the corporation bet, only bank against other players.
I couldn't find anything on there about the making the corporation play but I promise you it is a thing!
This sounds like an interesting situation, the fact that you're asking the question trying to figure out if there's a way to gain an advantage deserves props. I didn't even know this was a thing.Quote: Thekid
I highly suggest not wasting your time going back and forth with MD. You are wasting your time. You should wait until someone more knowledgeable about all this chimes in. It seems to me using a blackjack card counting program while factoring in the VIG could answer your question.
You could also PM someone like Romes, RS, The Wizard and other guys knowledgeable about blackjack and math and bring this thread to their attention.
The dealer is NOT the corporation. The dealer is the casino.
The corporation is a 3rd party player similar to yourself.
California card game rules state you cannot go against the house. You must play against other players.
Most players dont have large bankrolls so independent 3rd party corporations send in players (usually they sit at position one) this keeps the possibility of there always being action.
Corporations banks so has rules as if playing as dealer. You can play as much as you want against him.
Since corporate is just another player (basically a whale betting against you) you also have the opportunity to take over as banker.
Then you can bet as much as you like against corporate paying the $5 fee per $100. In essence you are paying to have the dealer house edge on your side.
The corporation player is well trained but just a grunt playing for a corporation he answers too. He doesnt really care if you win or lose as long as he sticks to full rules of play his job is protected
Casino doesn't care because they only get per hand fee from both sides (you and corporate) per hand
Aside from these funky fees and corporate banker rules its pretty much like any other blackjack game
Anyway, as I posted above I don't pretend to understand this particular BJ game but seems that you do.
So, answer the guy's question then please?
My first intuitive response was that any edge he might be able to gain through counting, assuming that he is able to vary the wager "pretty much like any other blackjack game" (to the tune of the count) would be eaten up by having to pay 5% per pot during the time that he is assuming the house's shoes. Counting isn't going to overcome deducting five percent off the top of any advantage play. I haven't heard anything that would contradict that first notion of mine.
Quote: MDawgI understood that part I just wasn't making it clear that it makes no difference. If the "dealer" isn't in play, isn't playing in the game, then the corporation is in effect the dealer other than that the corporation doesn't collect any winnings for the house, by winning, it collects the winnings for itself. The house makes its money off a poker game like "rake" of 5%. I read somewhere that the corporation isn't even necessarily another player, it might be another casino.
Anyway, as I posted above I don't pretend to understand this particular BJ game but seems that you do.
So, answer the guy's question then please?
My first intuitive response was that any edge he might be able to gain through counting, assuming that he is able to vary the wager "pretty much like any other blackjack game" (to the tune of the count) would be eaten up by having to pay 5% per pot during the time that he is assuming the house's shoes. Counting isn't going to overcome deducting five percent off the top of any advantage play. I haven't heard anything that would contradict that first notion of mine.
Intuitively I agree.
However
The choice to bank and when is on you in a heads up game
The counting advantage would be 2 pronged.
When the count is low play table minimum as normal player ($1 fee to casino plus normal bj house edge)
When count is high
Then choose to bank with Maximum amount allowable and max hands (you can choose number of hands well)
So in essence you are only paying the 5% when you are at an advantage.
Pay 5% at high count on $3000
Pay a buck on $10 on smaller counts
I am not doing any math on this. Just throwing my thoughts on how it might work
EDIT: I should also point out that on top of the high count when banking you assume the edge the dealer normally has.
That has to be factored in as well.
Its been years since I was there so the kid will have to confirm how that works. That part is too vague in my memory but assuming you gain the house edge (the whole point of banking) combined with temporary high count and max bets....
I did an analysis of UK blackjack many years ago (6 decks 83% penetration)>
From the player's view you needed a count exceeding 5.5 to have a 2% advantage and 7.8 for a 3% advantage. The latter happens about 1 hand in 96, the former 1 hand in 33.
From the banker's view a count lower than -3.1 creates a 2% advantage (1 hand in 10), -5.1 creates a 3% advantage (1 hand in 25), -8.2 creates a 5% advantage (1 hand in 113).
Thus it would seem there aren't many opportunities where playing the bank and having the "dealer's" advantage overcome the 5% fee. Also paying $1 112 hands out of 113 waiting for the situation has a major effect as you would still need a huge advantage on $3000 to get back the $112.
The figures above assume a game with a house edge of .45% so I suspect if the fee was 1% or the inbuilt House Edge more favourable for the banker, then it could be well worth taking the bank, but at 5% it doesn't seem worth it.
Quote: charliepatrickI'm guessing from the comments that to play the bank you pay $5 per $100 (i.e. 5%) up front.
I did an analysis of UK blackjack many years ago (6 decks 83% penetration)>
From the player's view you needed a count exceeding 5.5 to have a 2% advantage and 7.8 for a 3% advantage. The latter happens about 1 hand in 96, the former 1 hand in 33.
From the banker's view a count lower than -3.1 creates a 2% advantage (1 hand in 10), -5.1 creates a 3% advantage (1 hand in 25), -8.2 creates a 5% advantage (1 hand in 113).
Thus it would seem there aren't many opportunities where playing the bank and having the "dealer's" advantage overcome the 5% fee. Also paying $1 112 hands out of 113 waiting for the situation has a major effect as you would still need a huge advantage on $3000 to get back the $112.
The figures above assume a game with a house edge of .45% so I suspect if the fee was 1% or the inbuilt House Edge more favourable for the banker, then it could be well worth taking the bank, but at 5% it doesn't seem worth it.
According to wizard of odds BJ house edge calculator it puts it at 2.01881% at an even count (6:5 payout, hit soft 17). What does that do to the numbers you calculated? The other thing is you are only paying that $1 when you decide to bank. So you are not paying $112 waiting to get and advantage. You can sit and play $5 hands until the count is strongly in the houses favor then decide to bank.
Quote: ThekidAccording to wizard of odds BJ house edge calculator it puts it at 2.01881% at an even count (6:5 payout, hit soft 17). What does that do to the numbers you calculated? The other thing is you are only paying that $1 when you decide to bank. So you are not paying $112 waiting to get and advantage. You can sit and play $5 hands until the count is strongly in the houses favor then decide to bank.
That doesnt sound right.
You have to pay the casino a play fee every hand correct?
It is $1 for every $100 range.
I.e. $10 or $100 pay $1, $101 or 200 pay $2. Etc
Theoretically if waiting for a high count you should flatbet $100 so you are paying a 1% fee instead of a 10% fee
That also would prevent other players from joining most of the time by asking for a $100 minimum table
You’re correct about the $1 for every $100 range but it only matters when you are banking.
Quote: ThekidNo you only have to pay the dealer if you are banking. You you are playing then the corporation pays the $1.
You’re correct about the $1 for every $100 range but it only matters when you are banking.
Having played a number of years in California that is not how it worked
Im not traveling to California to double check but i find your explanation not believable
The casino only makes a profit off that rake.
If you found a casino that in essence is only charging the corporation for playing except when they dont bank you have just found a goldmine
Never mind banking. Just card count and trounce the corporation
But again I am highly skeptical
I have no reason to lie about this, just wanted some insight. I’ve have always wondered how they don’t eat exposed by card counters especially on the single and double deck tables.
Quote: darkozHaving played a number of years in California that is not how it worked
Im not traveling to California to double check but i find your explanation not believable
The casino only makes a profit off that rake.
If you found a casino that in essence is only charging the corporation for playing except when they dont bank you have just found a goldmine
Never mind banking. Just card count and trounce the corporation
But again I am highly skeptical
Southern California typically both player and banker pay, typically Central Valley and anything north of the Bay Area there is no fee collected from players, only banker.
Quote: Thekid).
I’ve have always wondered how they don’t eat exposed by card counters especially on the single and double deck tables.
They don’t pay 3/2 on blackjack. Well one does on shoes.
Quote: mcallister3200Southern California typically both player and banker pay, typically Central Valley and anything north of the Bay Area there is no fee collected from players, only banker.
Ah thanks for clarifying.
I always played in southern California
So why pay 5% to bank when its free to card count as player?
So the difference in profit seems to be made up by spreading it to all the players
Quote: darkozAh thanks for clarifying.
I always played in southern California
So why pay 5% to bank when its free to card count as player?
Yeah I guess I’ll just have to master counting and bank when the house edge is over 6% and play when it’s -1%.
How can I figure out what the house edge is based on the count?
Quote: ThekidYeah I guess I’ll just have to master counting and bank when the house edge is over 6% and play when it’s -1%.
How can I figure out what the house edge is based on the count?
But if its so strong a count that the edge is now +6% I still dont understand why you want to bank and drop your +6% to +1%?
Quote: sabreIsn't this all a mostly theoretical exercise? I was under the impression that if you try to bank regularly or otherwise cut into the corporation's profits that they'll get rid of you. The casino will toss you for some made up reason and trespass you if you insist on returning to bank more. And yes, I'm aware that the casino and corporation aren't supposed to be working together.
No thats not correct.
Why would the corporation be upset at playing an under-capitalized player with a 5% edge in corporates favor?
And since the casino makes the same amount regardless who is banking what do they care?
Put another way:
For every $100 wagered the player who is banking either wins $95 or loses $105
While corporate either loses $95 or wins $105
Would you kick out someone for banking under those conditions?
Corporate pays a $1 fee to play?
And you pay corporate $5 to bank?
Am I missing something. It feels like it
Quote: darkozSo if I understand it in mid and northern California the dealer does NOT collect $1 fee from players?
Corporate pays a $1 fee to play?
And you pay corporate $5 to bank?
Am I missing something. It feels like it
If you are banking you pay the corporation 5% of what you have them bet. Plus you pay the dealer the $1.
If you play then the corporation pays the dealer the $1 or however much depending on the amount bet.
Quote: ThekidIf you are banking you pay the corporation 5% of what you have them bet. Plus you pay the dealer the $1.
If you play then the corporation pays the dealer the $1 or however much depending on the amount bet.
And that is $1 per hundred to the dealer correct? On top of $5 to the corporation per hundred?
6% altogether?
Or just $1. To the casino? For a $3000 wager for example, the corporation gets $150 and the house a dollar? (I dont see that happening)
https://oag.ca.gov/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/gambling/capitol_casino.pdf
either TheKid doesn't know the rules or isn't able to explain them perfectly, but in either case he clearly doesn't know everything about the game he is playing inside and out. So the only way to settle this is to go straight to the source.
When I gamble I make certain I know all the rules for whatever game I am playing, I've even corrected dealers sometimes when they've made mistakes. You can't even get to advanced play like counting or whatever before you know the rules cold.
Quote: darkozAnd that is $1 per hundred to the dealer correct? On top of $5 to the corporation per hundred?
6% altogether?
Or just $1. To the casino? For a $3000 wager for example, the corporation gets $150 and the house a dollar? (I dont see that happening)
Not sure exactly but I believe anything under $50 is a .50 collection to the dealer $50-$100 is $1 $100-$300 $3 $300-$500 $5 and $500 up $7 It’s something close to that. Whoever is gaining the house edge is paying this rake. So if I’m banking I’m paying that if the corporation is banking they’re paying it. Player pays nothing.
Quote: MDawgReally the only way to get to the bottom of this is for someone (I am not interested in being that someone) to review carefully the rules for this particular casino at
/sites/all/files/agweb/pdfs/gambling/capitol_casino.pdf
either TheKid doesn't know the rules or isn't able to explain them perfectly, but in either case he clearly doesn't know everything about the game he is playing inside and out. So the only way to settle this is to go straight to the source.
When I gamble I make certain I know all the rules for whatever game I am playing, I've even corrected dealers sometimes when they've made mistakes. You can't even get to advanced play like counting or whatever before you know the rules cold.
Only thing I don’t know off the top of my head is the exact rate of collection for the dealer. I do know It is right around 1%. Everything else I feel has been explained pretty clearly in the thread by myself and others
You need a count so high it gives you a 7% edge to.make it profitable to bank
At which point you commit hari kiri AP style by dropping your 7% edge to 1%.
I think you have your answer why card counters are not attacking in this style
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F is pretty far from M on the keyboard. Yet you spelled your user name wrong.
I apologize, but I did not understand your remark. I seemed to write everything correctly.Quote: MaxPen
F is pretty far from M on the keyboard. Yet you spelled your user name wrong.
because you're spamming and that's against the site rules. SpaMfinnn.Quote: SpaffinnnI apologize, but I did not understand your remark. I seemed to write everything correctly.
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Are you the owner or just an affiliate?
If you're the owner of this website hopefully they won't ban you I have a few questions. Again I suggest you delete your advertisement and ask what you can and can't post regarding your website.
